Question: Remus, werewolf memories and definitions

[starfishstar]

Hello again, flist friends who love Remus like I do!

I've butted up against a couple of thorny I'm-trying-to-be-canon-compliant-but-canon-is-so-darn-vague questions again, as I forge forward in writing the latter part of my massive R/T fic (yes, it's coming, really!), so I thought I'd call in the experts at being thoughtful on Remus-related questions – i.e., you guys! So feel free to weigh in if you have any thoughts:

Question 1: Once they're back in human form after a full moon, do werewolves retain their memories of what they did while in their wolf form? For whatever reason, I always thought they don't – maybe they have some vague impressions (like how Remus at the end of PoA is able to say definitively that he didn't eat anyone/anything during the night he was loose on the Hogwarts grounds) but not concrete memories. I guess I always assumed being "out of their minds" while transformed meant exactly that – separated from their human mind entirely, not just divorced from their human sense of morality. Then again, Remus reminisces fondly about adventures they had on full moon night, with him transformed and the other three Marauders in their Animagus forms, so maybe he does retain memories, if he's able to talk fondly about those experiences...? The Pottermore info on werewolves is no help; it just says, "While in his or her wolfish form, the werewolf loses entirely its human sense of right or wrong" – but nothing about whether they lose or retain their memory, or other aspects of their mind.

(This is relevant because I have a plot thread in the Remus-with-the-werewolves part of the story where he's stunned to learn that the wild werewolves he's living with are able to retain their memories from their "wolf mind" even once they've returned to human form – the way I've written it, it's a skill that takes a lot of training, and is passed down from werewolf to werewolf, so Remus as a human-raised werewolf never got the chance to learn it from an elder werewolf. But of course all that doesn't work if it's canon that all werewolves can retain their memories.)

Question 2: Are werewolves officially defined as a subset of "humans" or as a separate species? I thought the latter – separate species, not considered "human" – both because the Harry Potter Wiki lists Remus' species as "werewolf" and "human (formerly)" (i.e., if he's a werewolf, then he's no longer technically human) and because I'd thought Remus himself makes statements in the books about himself not being "human." I wouldn't know where to look for those quotes, though – so does that ring any bells for anyone? Also, Pottermore says, "Werewolves have been shunted between the Beast and Being divisions of the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures for years," which to me implies that they can't be classified as humans, because humans are definitely Beings. Thoughts?

(ETA: This is significant in terms of how the werewolves talk about themselves, since I have them drawing a clear distinction between themselves and humans, and rejecting talking about themselves with terms like "man" or "human." Which I guess they could do even if they are technically humans, but I thought maybe I should try to figure out for sure what they're defined as, in order to make a better-informed decision about this.)

Special bonus question, just for fun: As far as I can tell, it is hard and fast fanon that if the Marauders were a rock band, then unquestionably James would be the lead singer/lead guitarist and Sirius would be the bassist. (I, too, have written a story with that configuration in it!) Is this only because James is presented as sort of the "leader" of the Marauders in canon and the lead singer/guitarist is generally the "leader" of a rock band, and then since bassist seems like the obvious "second" role, that goes to Sirius? Or are there actual character reasons why we think this way – for example, James likes being the center of attention, so he's the singer, and bassists are sexy and dark and mysterious, so that must be Sirius...? Discuss! ;-)

Comments

[stereolightning.livejournal.com]

I'll throw in my two cents about werewolf taxonomy. :) I think werewolves are still people, just people with a particular illness (a furry little problem!), but that wizarding society treats them as not-people, and we are meant to see that treatment as a bad, unjust thing. Remus has internalized that unjust opinion, but that doesn't mean he isn't human.

However - if we are meant to read werewolves as a different kind of being from humans (which, okay, there are others like this in HP-world, goblins and house-elves and centaurs and giants), then we are still meant to see all these magical/humanish beings as essentially equal, even though at many points in the series, public opinion is that any Other beings are less-than.

I was going to say, Remus was born human and has a human child, which is different from somebody like Hagrid, who was born half-giant and stayed that way, or Fleur, who was born 1/4 Veela and sometimes exhibits Veela characteristics and will presumably pass on even more diluted Veela characteristics to her children. Teddy, though - not a werewolf, or "half-werewolf" (whatever that means!) because he doesn't exhibit "werewolf lite" traits. That makes me think "werewolf" is more analogous to a disease and not a genetic category.

Then, you have somebody like Tonks, a Metamorphmagus, which is some kind of special category within wizards, with extra powers that she was born with. And then you have the Animagi, who are different from someone who has been turned into an animal by another (like when Draco is turned into a ferret), and I'm still not clear on whether or not you need a wand to do the Animagus transformation, because it seems like Peter needs his wand to escape from his shackles in PoA, BUT Sirius can just become a dog whenever he wants in Azkaban (though of course, part of me says, that's just because Peter is an inferior wizard, and Sirius is awesome). But you elect to become an Animagus. And then you just are one, forever? Could somebody *else* turn Sirius into a ferret even though his Animagus form is a dog?

But of course, I am pulling in things that don't really exist in HP-verse, like genetics (they talk about "blood," which is perhaps not the same thing), so, grain of salt!

[starfishstar]

Ooh, the fact that Remus has a werewolf child, rather than a "half-werewolf" child (even if many in wizarding society will probably still consider Teddy that, unfortunately, regardless of whether there's any factual basis for it) does point strongly toward werewolves *not* being a separate species, doesn't it?

Which makes sense, really, since lycanthropy is clearly presented in the books as being a disease (akin to AIDS) rather than changing the fundamental species classification of the infected person. Maybe I've just been misled by the Harry Potter Wikia's terminology?? I'll ponder this.

(The reason it matters to me in this case is not in relation to the way others look down on Remus as "non-human" - which is clearly wrong, regardless of what he isn't - but in terms of how the werewolves see themselves. I have them insistent on not using human terminology for themselves - for example, the Alpha of the pack corrects Remus when he uses the word "man" to refer to a werewolf. But perhaps the werewolves could make this choice as a way of distinguishing themselves, societally and linguistically, from wizards, even if it's not technically/biologically true that they're a separate species?)

I wish I could think where to find the quotes (that may or may not exist?) that I thought Remus has somewhere in the books, refering to himself as not-a-human, but I wouldn't know where to start looking! Maybe all I'm thinking of is when he says "my kind don't usually breed," in which "kind" could just as well mean "my type of humans" rather than "my species"?

[bets-wilcox.livejournal.com]

I guess some werewolves do retain their wolf memories based on this: When Remus found out that Greyback was the one who bit him, I assume he found out because Greyback remembers doing this deed? But Greyback "positions himself near victims at full moon to ensure that he can strike" - that means, had he not done so, the wolf mind wouldn't know the human mind's intents.

In fanon I think Remus usually doesn't remember his wolf-night experiences, aside from the marauding (but that can easily be explained by Remus hearing about what a great time they had from James and Sirius.)

In other words, I think your rationale - that Remus doesn't really remember wolf memories, but certain werewolves, like Greyback, does, makes sense.

[starfishstar]

Hi bets_wilcox! Thanks for joining in on these fandom-y questions. :-)

Interesting; you know, I think I always assumed "how Remus finds out who bit him" was either directly from his dad (ashamedly finally admitting to Remus, years later, the role he unwittingly played in it by insulting Greyback, and the guilt he's carried around ever since - speaking of which, oh man, what a burden of guilt these Lupins carry with them!) or perhaps through some kind of Ministry record Remus stumbled across. (As opposed to learning the fact from Greyback, directly or indirectly.) But I don't know if I have canonical proof for thinking that!

(Also, shimotsuki has a cool take on that question, in her story "Colours under the Moon" - that Remus doesn't learn who bit him until he accidentally reads about himself in a Ministry file on Greyback, during HBP!)

Mmhm, JKR's frustratingly vague on this whole werewolf memories thing. So I think I'm going to go ahead and keep the bit of my story that relates to this, unless anyone can prove that I shouldn't!

[bets-wilcox.livejournal.com]

I guess I always thought that Remus found out from Greyback, or from some of the other werewolves, because earlier in the conversation over Christmas at the Burrow, he tells Harry that he's been working underground, and then he hesitates and mentions that Greyback was the one who bit him, and how he felt about Greyback. To me, it sounded like Remus hadn't had anyone to talk to about this detail because he'd discovered it while on his underground mission.

It's also definitely plausible that he finds out from his dad, I can't remember if there anything in the Pottermore bio about that?

[starfishstar]

Ooh, I hadn't thought of that as being new information to Remus at the point he talks to Harry about it – he says that he didn't know "for a very long time" who bit him, which to me meant that for many years he didn't know, but then at some point (also a number of years ago), he did find out. But you're right, the finding out could have been much more recent, during his time living with the werewolves during HBP.

Oh man, oh man. I have so many thoughts about Remus with the werewolf pack – it's what I've been writing for the last, oh gosh, year and a half or so, as I continue my massive R/T fic into the Half-Blood Prince part of the canon timeline... It's starting to get where I really can't wait to share this story with the world, after I've been working on it in my own head for *so* long!